It is currently Tue Jul 14, 2020 4:37 am



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed seit
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:07 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
All manuals I see that are close to my 250cc buggy say that the key should go from of to on. Then you continue turning the key clockwise untill the starter engages and the engines starts. Let go of the key and it will return to the on position. This key starts in the off position at approximately 12 o'clock. When you turn it to "on" it stops at about 3 o'clock. The key can't turn further. I've included a pic of this switch. There are only 2 contact leads on the back. This leads me to believe it's only a 2 position switch. Does this seem right?


Attachments:
20190821_095218.jpg
20190821_095218.jpg [ 2.28 MiB | Viewed 1331 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:19 pm 
Offline
Buggy Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Posts: 6928
Location: Quad Cities, IL
I think a minimum of 3 wires (some have 5). Yes, off-on-starter (which is momentary, just like a car). Is it possible you have a separate push buttom, momentary start button?

_________________
Ron

2009 Hammerhead 250SS (it's got a few mods)
Joylaris 400

Gone, but not forgotten: 2005 Carter Talon, 2007 Hammerhead 250SS
Proud member of Team FIB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:57 am 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
On that same panel there is a switch listed as I think "engine off" or something like that. The button it's self is two position. It's a push button that you push once it clicks down and when you push it again it comes back out. There are three leads. Only 2 are used (the outside 2), the outside two making almost making it an on/off switch. Pic shows the connection. I don't see any other switches. There are some wires not connected under the keyed switch. I'll get pics of those soon. Do the colors of the wires have any general assignments on a wiring diagram?


Attachments:
20190821_095236.jpg
20190821_095236.jpg [ 2.67 MiB | Viewed 1314 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:13 pm 
Offline
Buggy Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Posts: 6928
Location: Quad Cities, IL
Most of these buggies have both a key (off-on-start) and a kill switch. Can shut the motor off either with the key or the kill switch. The kill switch is a push button that does not stay depressed. Push until the motor kills, and then release the button.
Your bottom photo does look like a kill switch, but if it stays depressed, then I wonder if it has been replaced. I also wonder if your start switch has also been replaced. Some people are prone to butcher up the wiring.

_________________
Ron

2009 Hammerhead 250SS (it's got a few mods)
Joylaris 400

Gone, but not forgotten: 2005 Carter Talon, 2007 Hammerhead 250SS
Proud member of Team FIB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:53 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
I have no doubt it's been butchered and then re butchered. Lol. I'm going to get a pic of the wiring for the keyed switch. I want to see if there are any wires that present that maybe are correct for a proper switch. Does anyone know where I could buy just the switch? Maybe that'll give me an idea for leads and wiring


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:08 pm 
Offline
Buggy Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Posts: 6928
Location: Quad Cities, IL
If you go to hammerheadperformance.com you can search for ignition switch and kill switch and see some of the different ones. Almost all I've seen have at least 3 wires.

_________________
Ron

2009 Hammerhead 250SS (it's got a few mods)
Joylaris 400

Gone, but not forgotten: 2005 Carter Talon, 2007 Hammerhead 250SS
Proud member of Team FIB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:51 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Here's how your switch work. You power the machine with the switch itself, that will give you power to everything you need, in theory, lights, cdi and any accessories on your machine.

Usually, like sockman said, you have 3 positions / wires. In your case, you have a push button to start the machine. The push button only give power to the solenoid, on the 2 small wires with a connectors.

It does the exact same thing but in a different way.

Check the solenoid wires and you should have the same one in the dash somewhere. Check the wiring harness not the solenoid itself as they can be different colour. Soon those 2 wires will get connect with the switch, the starter should engage.

If you want to check without checking wires, short the 2 botls / nuts on the top of the solenoid with the key at on and the starter will engage. Now this is with a buggy wire correctly, mean you need to make sure you don't have wires touching ground if they are not suppose to. It will also spark a bit when you touch both together so wear glove and try not to short yourself. Most unlikely but be careful.

If all that work and for some kind of reason when you put the key back at off and the machine don't stop, disconnect the CDI and it will. So keep the CDI close to you to be able to disconnect it in that case.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:47 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
I have jumped the bolts on the solenoid. It turns over with the key on or off I think. If it does turn over with the switch off what does that mean. The button next to it which says engine off doesn't actually depress it clicks like on and off. If I check continuity of the outside leads it goes from open and closed. Still possibly on/off or kill?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:22 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
The key doesn’t matter for the starter. The only thing you did is connecting the battery directly to the starter by jumping the 2 bolts.

Don’t forget, remove the plug from the cdi if you can’t sto the machine or anything goes wrong.

Now that you know how to activate the starter, when the starter spin, the pick up coil will send the signal to the cdi. Remove the spark plug and keep it connected, and touch it on the engine to get a ground.

Your problem now is, you can not see what’s happening because of the wires cut and slice and cut again. The push button you talk about is what I believe the kill switch. Try on, off and without the wires. The test is to check when you jump the 2 bolts, do you have spark?

Soon you have spark, it is one less problem.

Post back your result after.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:31 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
I had pulled the plug before and did what you said and I didn't see a spark. I saw an article about testing the cdi. I have a feeling that's part of my problem. What I read was about testing a DC cdi in a gy6 150cc. Does the cdi operate the same? If I turn the key on should I see a voltage change at cdi? When I jump the solenoid is there a change? What should I be able to test at the cdi in different scenarios and what are the ranges?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:31 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
CDI, the connector with 2 wires on it, if you turn the key on, you should see 12 volts DC if you have a DC CDI. Otherwise, USUALLY, it is an AC. In your case, the wires have been cut and ...

As per your picture, I see black and white wire, this is usually the kill switch, you should see the same wire on the cdi with the connector with 2 wires. The last wire on the connector with 2 wires is the power, trace that wire and see where it goes, if it goes to the stator, it's AC, if it goes to the dash, it's DC.

As for your questions.

Does the CDI operate the same? The connector with 4 wires is the same, only the one with 2 wires change and it;s only where the power come.

If I turn the key ...? If you turn the key and see 12 volts DC, you have a DC CDI.

Jump the solenoid? It will only give the trigger from the pick up coil signal to the CDI to fire BUT you need power on the CDI first then you will see spark on the spark plug.

Last question, see above.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:46 am 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
It measures 12v at pin 6. Thats the only wire in that two wire plug while the switch is on. When are made it crank I saw 4 v at pin 2. Nothing else to speak of. There has to be a push button start some where but I have no idea. I took a couple pictures so you can see what I'm dealing with.


Attachments:
20190825_161913.jpg
20190825_161913.jpg [ 3.43 MiB | Viewed 1215 times ]
20190825_153112.jpg
20190825_153112.jpg [ 2.15 MiB | Viewed 1215 times ]
20190825_152128.jpg
20190825_152128.jpg [ 3.16 MiB | Viewed 1215 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:36 am 
Offline
Buggy Addict
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2005 8:08 pm
Posts: 6928
Location: Quad Cities, IL
Can you follow the wire back from the starter solenoid?

_________________
Ron

2009 Hammerhead 250SS (it's got a few mods)
Joylaris 400

Gone, but not forgotten: 2005 Carter Talon, 2007 Hammerhead 250SS
Proud member of Team FIB


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:03 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
The reason why I make you short the solenoid is to make sure this part work and it does.

Pin 2 is the power to the ignition coil, check the ignition coil and the ground. Ground are a common problem.

Also, this is a good job, you have a few wires to clean up. Make sure no other wires are exposed and touch where they should not.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:26 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
Here's the setup for the push button.

Attachment:
IMG_2490.JPG
IMG_2490.JPG [ 683.05 KiB | Viewed 1193 times ]


- Top right, the alligator clips plug on the battery.
- Solenoid connector, one wire to the battery and the other one to the switch.
- Last wire from the switch goes to the battery.

In your case, it will depend on how you want to do it but this is the idea.

This is how I knew your situation. I did the same thing, I disconnect the switch partially, I remove the start position and use the button to do that. In my case, I use this setup when I test the compression and other project I do. I can sit in the back of the machine and don't have to go in the front and turn the key.

In reality I set it up the way your machine work. Put the switch at on / accessories and use the button to start instead of the key at the start position. Soon I disconnect the solenoid connector and reconnect the original connector, the machine work as it's suppose.

You have to look at it independently, one circuit at the time and narrow it down slowly. This is also why I knew jumping the 2 bolts will do the same effect. Your last thing is to check power to CDI, get spark, get the machine starting and last, you clean the wires and get the start button working.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:25 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
Is this something I need to make or I can buy it that way?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:45 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
You can buy the connectors and make it. First, I would start this machine and make sure everything work before you spend money. Try to spend as less as possible on the machine until you know it work.

You can hack it for now without spending money, when it work, this is when you start spending money on things you really need.

What you are doing now is not an easy task. Electrical problem are the hardest one to fix. It takes time and patience.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:56 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
I guess a good start wood be following the wire from the selonoid and see where it goes and what it's connected to. I think my general problem is the cdi, coil, and plug. I don't think I'm getting spark. It's wasn't the greatest condition to see it. Bright outside. I can smell full when I jump the contacts on the selonoid. So it seem spark is the issue.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:17 pm 
Offline
Aftermarket Dealer

Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 2:49 am
Posts: 334
Location: Edmonton, Alberta
The solenoid is not the big issue now because you can jump the 2 bolts.

I would start following the wire and power the CDI. I would concentrate on getting spark first. Like I said before, spark plug out and touching the engine to ground it. When you touch the 2 bolts of the solenoid, the pick up coil will send the signal to the CDI and you should have spark. This is a long and painful process, trust me I did that many times.

Of course, you could spend money and buy everything but next time something break, you do the same thing over and over. This process become really expensive, changing everything every time !!! As you go thru you will learn more and more and get better. Trust me we went thru the same thing as you before.

Narrow down the problem and keep track of what you do on a piece of paper.

Soon the engine start, you will have a big smile :D At this point you can rewires, clean up everything because you have a working machine. If there's something you don't understand or not sure, post it and someone will be able to tell you how exactly.

_________________
Image https://gokart.maximum.parts
Image YouTube
Image Facebook


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed
PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:59 pm 
Offline
Initiated

Joined: Sun Aug 11, 2019 2:58 pm
Posts: 36
This is what I found for the cdi. It's for a 150 this is a cn250. Is this the same connections? Which do I need to follow?


Attachments:
article_6_1300822933.jpg
article_6_1300822933.jpg [ 125.83 KiB | Viewed 1145 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 48 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group

blackLevel designed by GrafsS



phpBB SEO
© Buggynews.com - All Rights Reserved