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How many connections should be on the back of the keyed seit

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How many connections should be on the back of the keyed seit

by Jlattan75 » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:07 pm

All manuals I see that are close to my 250cc buggy say that the key should go from of to on. Then you continue turning the key clockwise untill the starter engages and the engines starts. Let go of the key and it will return to the on position. This key starts in the off position at approximately 12 o'clock. When you turn it to "on" it stops at about 3 o'clock. The key can't turn further. I've included a pic of this switch. There are only 2 contact leads on the back. This leads me to believe it's only a 2 position switch. Does this seem right?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Sockman » Thu Aug 22, 2019 9:19 pm

I think a minimum of 3 wires (some have 5). Yes, off-on-starter (which is momentary, just like a car). Is it possible you have a separate push buttom, momentary start button?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:57 am

On that same panel there is a switch listed as I think "engine off" or something like that. The button it's self is two position. It's a push button that you push once it clicks down and when you push it again it comes back out. There are three leads. Only 2 are used (the outside 2), the outside two making almost making it an on/off switch. Pic shows the connection. I don't see any other switches. There are some wires not connected under the keyed switch. I'll get pics of those soon. Do the colors of the wires have any general assignments on a wiring diagram?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Sockman » Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:13 pm

Most of these buggies have both a key (off-on-start) and a kill switch. Can shut the motor off either with the key or the kill switch. The kill switch is a push button that does not stay depressed. Push until the motor kills, and then release the button.
Your bottom photo does look like a kill switch, but if it stays depressed, then I wonder if it has been replaced. I also wonder if your start switch has also been replaced. Some people are prone to butcher up the wiring.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 5:53 pm

I have no doubt it's been butchered and then re butchered. Lol. I'm going to get a pic of the wiring for the keyed switch. I want to see if there are any wires that present that maybe are correct for a proper switch. Does anyone know where I could buy just the switch? Maybe that'll give me an idea for leads and wiring
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Sockman » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:08 pm

If you go to hammerheadperformance.com you can search for ignition switch and kill switch and see some of the different ones. Almost all I've seen have at least 3 wires.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:51 pm

Here's how your switch work. You power the machine with the switch itself, that will give you power to everything you need, in theory, lights, cdi and any accessories on your machine.

Usually, like sockman said, you have 3 positions / wires. In your case, you have a push button to start the machine. The push button only give power to the solenoid, on the 2 small wires with a connectors.

It does the exact same thing but in a different way.

Check the solenoid wires and you should have the same one in the dash somewhere. Check the wiring harness not the solenoid itself as they can be different colour. Soon those 2 wires will get connect with the switch, the starter should engage.

If you want to check without checking wires, short the 2 botls / nuts on the top of the solenoid with the key at on and the starter will engage. Now this is with a buggy wire correctly, mean you need to make sure you don't have wires touching ground if they are not suppose to. It will also spark a bit when you touch both together so wear glove and try not to short yourself. Most unlikely but be careful.

If all that work and for some kind of reason when you put the key back at off and the machine don't stop, disconnect the CDI and it will. So keep the CDI close to you to be able to disconnect it in that case.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:47 pm

I have jumped the bolts on the solenoid. It turns over with the key on or off I think. If it does turn over with the switch off what does that mean. The button next to it which says engine off doesn't actually depress it clicks like on and off. If I check continuity of the outside leads it goes from open and closed. Still possibly on/off or kill?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Fri Aug 23, 2019 8:22 pm

The key doesn’t matter for the starter. The only thing you did is connecting the battery directly to the starter by jumping the 2 bolts.

Don’t forget, remove the plug from the cdi if you can’t sto the machine or anything goes wrong.

Now that you know how to activate the starter, when the starter spin, the pick up coil will send the signal to the cdi. Remove the spark plug and keep it connected, and touch it on the engine to get a ground.

Your problem now is, you can not see what’s happening because of the wires cut and slice and cut again. The push button you talk about is what I believe the kill switch. Try on, off and without the wires. The test is to check when you jump the 2 bolts, do you have spark?

Soon you have spark, it is one less problem.

Post back your result after.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Sun Aug 25, 2019 12:31 pm

I had pulled the plug before and did what you said and I didn't see a spark. I saw an article about testing the cdi. I have a feeling that's part of my problem. What I read was about testing a DC cdi in a gy6 150cc. Does the cdi operate the same? If I turn the key on should I see a voltage change at cdi? When I jump the solenoid is there a change? What should I be able to test at the cdi in different scenarios and what are the ranges?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Sun Aug 25, 2019 2:31 pm

CDI, the connector with 2 wires on it, if you turn the key on, you should see 12 volts DC if you have a DC CDI. Otherwise, USUALLY, it is an AC. In your case, the wires have been cut and ...

As per your picture, I see black and white wire, this is usually the kill switch, you should see the same wire on the cdi with the connector with 2 wires. The last wire on the connector with 2 wires is the power, trace that wire and see where it goes, if it goes to the stator, it's AC, if it goes to the dash, it's DC.

As for your questions.

Does the CDI operate the same? The connector with 4 wires is the same, only the one with 2 wires change and it;s only where the power come.

If I turn the key ...? If you turn the key and see 12 volts DC, you have a DC CDI.

Jump the solenoid? It will only give the trigger from the pick up coil signal to the CDI to fire BUT you need power on the CDI first then you will see spark on the spark plug.

Last question, see above.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Mon Aug 26, 2019 7:46 am

It measures 12v at pin 6. Thats the only wire in that two wire plug while the switch is on. When are made it crank I saw 4 v at pin 2. Nothing else to speak of. There has to be a push button start some where but I have no idea. I took a couple pictures so you can see what I'm dealing with.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Sockman » Mon Aug 26, 2019 9:36 am

Can you follow the wire back from the starter solenoid?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Mon Aug 26, 2019 1:03 pm

The reason why I make you short the solenoid is to make sure this part work and it does.

Pin 2 is the power to the ignition coil, check the ignition coil and the ground. Ground are a common problem.

Also, this is a good job, you have a few wires to clean up. Make sure no other wires are exposed and touch where they should not.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Mon Aug 26, 2019 3:26 pm

Here's the setup for the push button.

IMG_2490.JPG


- Top right, the alligator clips plug on the battery.
- Solenoid connector, one wire to the battery and the other one to the switch.
- Last wire from the switch goes to the battery.

In your case, it will depend on how you want to do it but this is the idea.

This is how I knew your situation. I did the same thing, I disconnect the switch partially, I remove the start position and use the button to do that. In my case, I use this setup when I test the compression and other project I do. I can sit in the back of the machine and don't have to go in the front and turn the key.

In reality I set it up the way your machine work. Put the switch at on / accessories and use the button to start instead of the key at the start position. Soon I disconnect the solenoid connector and reconnect the original connector, the machine work as it's suppose.

You have to look at it independently, one circuit at the time and narrow it down slowly. This is also why I knew jumping the 2 bolts will do the same effect. Your last thing is to check power to CDI, get spark, get the machine starting and last, you clean the wires and get the start button working.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:25 pm

Is this something I need to make or I can buy it that way?
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Thu Aug 29, 2019 2:45 pm

You can buy the connectors and make it. First, I would start this machine and make sure everything work before you spend money. Try to spend as less as possible on the machine until you know it work.

You can hack it for now without spending money, when it work, this is when you start spending money on things you really need.

What you are doing now is not an easy task. Electrical problem are the hardest one to fix. It takes time and patience.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:56 pm

I guess a good start wood be following the wire from the selonoid and see where it goes and what it's connected to. I think my general problem is the cdi, coil, and plug. I don't think I'm getting spark. It's wasn't the greatest condition to see it. Bright outside. I can smell full when I jump the contacts on the selonoid. So it seem spark is the issue.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by MaxP » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:17 pm

The solenoid is not the big issue now because you can jump the 2 bolts.

I would start following the wire and power the CDI. I would concentrate on getting spark first. Like I said before, spark plug out and touching the engine to ground it. When you touch the 2 bolts of the solenoid, the pick up coil will send the signal to the CDI and you should have spark. This is a long and painful process, trust me I did that many times.

Of course, you could spend money and buy everything but next time something break, you do the same thing over and over. This process become really expensive, changing everything every time !!! As you go thru you will learn more and more and get better. Trust me we went thru the same thing as you before.

Narrow down the problem and keep track of what you do on a piece of paper.

Soon the engine start, you will have a big smile :D At this point you can rewires, clean up everything because you have a working machine. If there's something you don't understand or not sure, post it and someone will be able to tell you how exactly.
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Re: How many connections should be on the back of the keyed

by Jlattan75 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:59 pm

This is what I found for the cdi. It's for a 150 this is a cn250. Is this the same connections? Which do I need to follow?
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